One thing that often happens when a prominent muslim cleric preaches woman-hating and rape-apologising is an obligatory round of muslim bashing, and a reignited “values debate”. So on the back of Sheik al-Hilaly’s comments that hit the news stands yesterday, we have Paul Sheehan doing his thing [his thing being pointing out that muslim values just aren’t reconcilable with Australian culture in his opinion columns]. And what gets lost in these public exchanges is that many men in Australian culture who aren’t muslim have expressed the same or similar sentiments about rape victims. Our defense lawyers certainly do, as Paul Sheehan knows too well.
The following is an extract from Sheehan’s book, Girls Like You, that details the line of questioning that gang-rape victim Tegan Wagner was subjected during cross examination:
[Trigger warning]
Morison: “It’s true, is it not, that you made up a story to tell your nan about where you would be going in order that you would be allowed to go; that’s correct, isn’t it?”
“Yes.”
Morison: “You had made up a story so that you would be able to go to this party without your nan knowing. Correct?”
“Yeah.”
Morison: “After being in the lounge room initially and being seated, I suggest to you that you were offered a soft drink and that you requested some vodka. What do you say to that?”
“I say that’s not true. I was 14. I wouldn’t have requested alcohol. I have never requested alcohol.”
Morison: “And at that point you lent over and poured yourself a vodka?”
“I completely disagree.”
Morison: “Completely disagree?”
“Yes.”
Morison: “As opposed to disagree?”
“Yeah.”
Morison asked is she was feeling “flirtatious” that night.
“Definitely not flirtatious. I am very self-conscious about my body and personal image. I’m definitely not flirtatious.”
Morison: “Seeking to blame others for your own actions, weren’t you, Miss Wagner?”
Morison: “You didn’t mention ‘Amir took me into the bedroom’, or ‘Rashid took me into the bedroom’, or ‘Mohammad took me into the bedroom’, or anyone else. You said, ‘One of the guys’. Correct?”
“Correct.”
Morison: “Is there any reason why you didn’t make it clear to the police when you first spoke to them?”
“I didn’t think that somebody like you would be asking me a hundred times.”
Morison: “I’m not asking you about me, I’m asking you why you didn’t make it clear to the police when you first spoke to them?”
“It didn’t occur to me that I had to.”
This went on for some time. Morison then returned to Tegan’s sexual aggressiveness: “I suggest you went and sat next to Sami and you placed your hand on his leg?”
“I never did that. He asked me to go there, he put his arm around me, I never put my hand anywhere on him.”
“You began touching his leg with your right hand. Correct?”
“No, not correct.”
Morison: “You put your right hand on his left thigh and began to stroke it?”
“That is so far incorrect.”
Morison: “He placed his left arm around your shoulders?”
“I never put my hand on him, I never stroked his leg, I never touched his leg. I sat there with his arm around me.”
Morison: “But you were quite comfortable sitting there with his arm around you?”
“I wasn’t comfortable, hence the fact after that I got up and moved.”
Morison: “You didn’t ask him to move his arm away from your shoulder, did you?”
“That doesn’t mean I was comfortable.”
Morison: “You were quite happy and content to sit there and have a conversation over the next five minutes with that person. Correct?”
“I was being polite.”
Morison: “You were flirting with him?”
“No, I wasn’t.”
The barrister moved to events which took place after Tegan had gone to the bathroom and then been intercepted in the hall and taken into a bedroom.
“You also told us that, as I understand it, when you were sitting in the bedroom on the bed with the first boy that you started kissing, French kissing with your tongue, is that right?”
“Correct.”
Morison: “And that you were a participant in this, you were enjoying it, is that right?”
“It was my first kiss. I was curious.”
Morison: “You were curious, is that right?”
“I’d never done it before.”
Morison: “So you kissed him back, correct?”
“For a few seconds, yes.”
Morison: “Well, for a few minutes is what you told the police, isn’t it, Miss Wagner?”
“Well, if it says so in my statement, then yes.”
Morison: “See, you went, after kissing Sami in the bedroom … ”
“No, it was Amir.”
Morison: “You weren’t worried about anything. You were enjoying yourself?”
“If you don’t mind me saying, that’s complete bullshit.”
Then, later in questioning, Morison said: “See, I suggest to you, Ms Wagner, the reason why you mention a condom is because you had a condom with you, isn’t it, and it broke while you were having sex with Sami, correct?”
“That’s laughable. I did not have a condom on me. I probably didn’t know what they looked like. I was 14. The only thing I had on me was my lip gloss, which was in my pocket.”
The exchanges went on for hours.
Morison: “You then took each other’s own clothes off - I suggest it was Sami, you say it was Amir, you took your underwear off?”
“I did not take my underwear off. Somebody else did it for me. And my clothes stayed on me the whole time.”
Morison: “And you said to Sami: ‘I want to do it 69 style’?”
“That’s laughable … It never happened. The whole thing’s fantasy.”
Now, the Sheik’s comments are extreme. A more detailed translation is available here and he basically takes the typical fundie line of women being in league with the devil, no but I thought he thinks of women as jewels. I’m confused. In any case, this all needs to be put in context.
We’ve just learnt of a vicious attack on a young girl by a group of thugs. A gang attack on a young girl who was lewered by the group and then urinated on, her hair set fire and forced to perform sexual acts for their entertainment. An attack by whitey-white privileged youths from Werribee who made a dvd out of the ordeal and sold it for five bucks to pass on the love. A group of youths whose whitey-white parents thought it was all “a bit of fun”. These are boys who are being offered messages of support from their peers. You can get to the cached shot of one of the perpetrators [deleted] myspace by entering “myspace boofaloveslivvy” in google and clicking on “cached”. Here’s some examples of the words of support this guy has been receiving:
ey hun..
watz going on..?
u prob dont no me but i go 2 skool wif u ive seen u around.u seen me 2..lol
ive herd shit loads about “ctm” hu named that lmao…stupid.
gosh its all ova the news and ur face was clear as daii..lol my dad wont shut up saying how hes ashamed 2 live here i had a smile on my face thought it was funni prob shouldnt ov but aww well.. lol
was the chick realli retarded ive been told shes not nd the hole thing was a set up..aww wells
<3 beckboofi
i miss youuuuu !!
omg i seen ctm and omg
i dunno but i miss youuu and i hope evrything is alright and i want you to know im hear for you baby !!!
I LOVE YOUUUUU !!
ey u know that CTM got people at mackillop in shit 4 selling it but fuck mee its an awsome movie!! anyway im ed from mackillop in yr 9just seen that todat tonight thing man
why would anyone want to turn that into the police
And let’s not forget Leo Silvestri’s comments about the deceased Dianne Brimble during police questioning:
“It’s like, Hi, see you. I just brushed her off, I didn’t want to speak to her . .. breath, yuck, ugly dog, just go talk to someone else. Ring the RSPCA.”
As long as we keep ourselves in denial that only one section of our society thinks this way we fail to prevent these kinds of things happening again. Al-Hilaly’s comments were a godsend for those Werribee thugs, the media pressure is off to an extent whilst we all concentrate on the woman-hating mufti, well what about all those other woman-haters out there? They exist, can’t we just deport them all to Mars? No, we can’t. We have to address it and send a message that this is not okay. But all the messages that wider society sends youths and men contradicts everything we say and do. Now let’s just watch as these young fuckers get let off easy because the judge wouldn’t want to ruin their futures now would he, these white privileged youths could do something with their futures, of course that something wouldn’t be more raping and actions that belie their assumption of entitlement. Let’s watch their slap on the wrists and stern talking to and let’s watch as this young girl is traumatised for life and her attackers get a second chance.
yes, it’s a curious reaction when the government condemns such sentiments, as though it has some sort of air-tight record of policies for women supporting more than a bare minimum. i have heard white boys say this sort of bullshit a thousand times (try thugby players, for starters), and at worst it’s shrugged off as jocular nonsense, and at best tsk-tsked.
Yes the flip side to the “women are diamonds” precious “rubies” or other gems in need of “protection”, naturally suggests the inversion- people who don’t want to be covered are “cats meat”.
Both perspectives objectify women purely viewing them in relation to their sexual “danger”/allure to men.
How about women as people? That is a revolutionary idea.
I think this whole debate is revolutionary because for the first time we are seeing a change in the concept of hijab- reaffirming it as a matter of personal choice to do with a personal relationship with their faith- not for somebody’s else mandated idea of modesty or religion.
You have a right to believe something is mandatory for your beliefs and to advocate that- but you also have a right to respect others who choose differently from you- without demonising them as “satan’s spawn.”
Holding people hostage to fear and damnation is a very immature form of religion.
you know maybe nutso statements by crazy Muslim leaders have some value- if if that’s what it takes to reaffirm pro-women values in our society and create an internal debate within the muslim community- I’m willing to be collateral damage with the anti-muslim sentiment/fallout.
I mean you rarely hear this kind of discourse (condemnations of rape and sexual assault, etc) from male media commentators and leaders.
Yeah, but how many misogynist men, in light of this, are muslim bashing because they’re racists, not heroic protectors of women’s rights? It just allows the blame for all the world’s misogyny to be placed at the feet of one particular religion when it goes much deeper than that. It gives an out to other men’s behaviour because they’re not the ones being singled out. It allows the woman-hatng attitudes in wider society to go unscrutinised. And therefore they think the criticism doesn’t apply to them.
One clever young girl’s got her left and right men sorted - Alyx
http://madsheilamusings.blogspot.com/2006/10/forgotten-women-they-always-smile-and.html
At least yo-all are startin’ to wake up, but I think you’ve got a ways to go yet.
Good luck.
Aah Maximus, we meet again. So I suppose you’re suggesting that right-winged men are all uber-enlightened.
Right. Don’t make me cackle into my cauldron.
Ah, Anna, if only we, as man and woman, could lay back in a field of flowers on a sunny day, without a care in the world and laugh about this - I mean truly laugh, with the honesty and simplicity of innocent kids.
But sadly, we cannot.
Let me tell you, that is not my doing, so it must be someone else’s.
Even enemies, who engage in killing each other 24/7 build up respect. But maybe that’s just a man thing. Then again, maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s a human condition called common decency.
Whatever it is, that’s why I respect Alyx. She writes for herself - and ef’ing well too - not rhetoric, but she writes of her own mind. It doesn’t matter that she has a different set of values to mine. What matters is that she has a mind of her own. I respect that in a woman and I’ve have told her so.
Sadly, I don’t find that quality here.
Doesn’t matter, I’m still open to that “laugh” in the hills under the sun, amongst the flowers. Ready when you are. And btw, bring a case of 4X with you, I usually get a bit thirsy after a good “laugh”.
God bless your little parts.
Ah Maximus, feel free to fuck off.
But thanks for the link to Alyx’s blog. It is quite good.
In any case I did enjoy your little fantasy of hills and sun and laughter- made me all warm and fuzzy inside.
God bless your little parts.
Forgive me but I couldn’t pass up an opportunity like that. It’s like you were just giving it away Maximus.
HAHA
This is why feminism is sexy people!
You can’t build this banter and sexual tension without some warfare…
Absolutely correct Sarah!
Where would we be without tension between the sexes?
That’s exactly why there will NEVER be equality between man and woman. Man is man, woman is woman. The two are as equal as an apple is to a banana.
And as a devout practising sexist, let me tell you, “Vivre le différence!”
If only you feminists could just get a handle on that idea. Yep, if only…
Outrageous! Engarde!- to the death!